~ Photo Cafe' ~ Photographers - Episode #54!
~ Chat Transcript ~
9th of March, 2024
"Photo Editing or Photo Cheating?"
H.12:00 PM SLT
[The following Episode #55 will be on:
23rd of March 2024]
[12:09] Kika Yongho: Hello Photographers!
Are you ready to start our first episode in the new month of March? I hope so because.. we’re gonna start now with my intro!
[12:10] Kika Yongho: Today I have a very important task: to introduce the next episode’s photo challenge! To do so, I have a box here, that I invite you all to start clicking, to take its contents.
[12:12] Kika Yongho: I will resume where we are at: “click this box next to me” LOL
[12:12] Kika Yongho: The faster of you will be already examining the folder received, and maybe – if you are really really fast! – also reading the notecard which accompanies the two other elements in the folder. But let’s see them together, as you keep click-click-click it!
[12:13] Kika Yongho: First of all.. Do you remember when we had the chat about what type of new topic and/or task you would have liked for us to do as new episodes? It was our episode #50, which you can read about in details on our website:
https://www.photocafe.news/2024/01/13/chat-transcript-50-discussion-is-gold-50th-episode
[12:14] Kika Yongho: Well, we took your suggestions into account and so.. get ready for a “pose challenge”! What do we mean? This is very simple (also because we included an instructions notecard into the pack!): basically you have a static pose that is being given to you, together with a poseball with the same pose, ready to rez and sit on. You can use either to pose your (or someone else’s!) avatar(s).
[12:15] Kika Yongho: The pack will be available until the next episode on the 23rd or March, as per our calendar:
https://www.photocafe.news/events/
(BTW did you know? Pressing the little blue “+” in the bottom right corner, adds our events to be displayed on your own google calendar!), and it will be here on the land open for all to take.
[12:16] Kika Yongho: Your task is.. of course.. to take your photo in the given pose! What rules did we set for it? Well, other than having at least one avatar using this pose in portrayed.. You are totally free to express your inspiration and to edit (or not! HA!) your resulting shot. You can take the photo anywhere on SL: here, on any sim, in your photo studio.. and it can be in any style you wish!
[12:17] Kika Yongho: Once you are done with your work, just upload a full perms texture on SL, so you are ready to have your photo displayed and discussed for our upcoming episode #55, on the 23rd or March h. 12:00PM SLT!
[12:17] Kika Yongho: As we are on it… Don’t forget that later tonight US will adopt the daylight saving time! This means, for the non US people, that the Photo Cafe’ episode of the 23rd could be an hour earlier than usual for them! Please check SLT in case of doubt (we will keep going at 12PM SLT!), add our google calendar to check the time in your timezone, and/or join our group to receive the notices:
~ Photo Cafe’ ~ Photographers ~
[12:18] Kika Yongho: Don’t worry tho: the next next episode #56, on April the 6th, will go back in its usual time slot we all are used to! But now, speak about episodes, we shall be starting today’s one, titled: “Photo Editing or Photo Cheating?”. For this and more related question, I will now give the word to our wonderful host who will moderate the discussion.. Josephine! Please let’s start, I am done with intro!
[12:19] Josephine Delvalle: Dear photographers and artists, welcome to a new round of our biweekly discussions.
[12:19] Josephine Delvalle: Today we will discuss about photo editing or photo manipulation.
[12:20] Josephine Delvalle: Photo manipulation is actually more or less as old as photography.
[12:20] Josephine Delvalle: Basically we can distinguish between:
[12:20] Josephine Delvalle: 1) Manipulation BEFORE taking the photo. This is what the so-called ‘staged photography’ means.
[12:21] Josephine Delvalle: The photographed scenes are posed here.
[12:21] Josephine Delvalle: This may be a scene that actually occurred but was not photographed. And now the desire later arises to have a picture of this scene. So it is recreated.
[12:21] Josephine Delvalle: But it could also be that a scene never happened. So a fictitious event is depicted. A faked situation
[12:22] Josephine Delvalle: 2) Photo manipulation DURING photography. The most commonly used tool is exposure.
[12:23] Josephine Delvalle: 3) Manipulation of the photo AFTER photography.
[12:23] Josephine Delvalle: This is referred to as image editing or older as retouching.
[12:23] Josephine Delvalle: In fact, this type of photo manipulation is also more or less as old as photography. However, in earlier times it was a very complex manual process.
[12:24] Josephine Delvalle: Those in power used this for political reasons. For example, Stalin had former companions who had fallen out of favor removed from shared photos.
[12:25] Josephine Delvalle: Digital photography has made it possible for everyone to subsequently manipulate photos.
[12:25] Josephine Delvalle: 1) We can improve the quality of our photo: exposure, contrast, color balance etc.
[12:26] Josephine Delvalle: 2) We can change the ‘quality’ of the recorded object. Turn a gray sky bright blue, remove the annoying car from a picturesque facade, enlarge the eyes and breasts and narrow the waist and, and, and – the so-called beauty retouching.
[12:26] Josephine Delvalle: 3) We can alter photos ‘artistically’. An example may be the Italian artist Laurent Rosset. He combines parts of real photos taken in a way that contradicts reality.
https://laurentrosset.com/blog-pictures/2016/2/1/3597oh5crvlmageofnhin9jebje43w
[12:27] Josephine Delvalle: Do you allow yourself to edit the images later?
[12:27] Josephine Delvalle: If so, in any form or, for example, just in terms of image quality?
[12:28] Josephine Delvalle: Or do you consciously play the piano of image manipulation like: Rosset?
[12:28] Igi (igielka): Q
[12:28] Josephine Delvalle: Or do you reject any image editing?
[12:28] HaileyMarie Redrose: C
[12:29] Josephine Delvalle: Igi, your turn
[12:30] Igi (igielka): To define what we mean by edit, for me the image and scene is done specifically for image is this the definition of edit or is it is more like you work on an image manually with an edit program to make improvements?
[12:31] . S y m . ™ (symmetryskyline): C
[12:31] Josephine Delvalle: You mean you are staging but not editing. Editing is using PhotoShop or a filter or all you do AFTER have taken the photo?
[12:32] Igi (igielka): Yes, like you catch and no do any more work on image, that is what edit means for me
[12:33] Josephine Delvalle: Nods, that is how I take it also.
[12:34] Igi (igielka): Yes, you create image , make poses , place objects , still doesn’t mean you edit, you only create what you have in mind. Done
[12:35] Josephine Delvalle: Hailey?
[12:35] HaileyMarie Redrose: I did photography in SL for many years, and I only did post-editing to fix things I couldn’t fix in-world. One of these was the shoddy avatar skeletons which caused joints, muscles and other parts to bend, twist, or ring upwards too much. I would use Liquify to smooth these out, create soft curves, get rid of harsh geometry, jagged edges, etc. The objective, at least in my opinion, is to get as much of the original shot without having to tinker or edit so much in post. I believe post editing should be to square imperfections, but of course, what constitutes an “imperfection” will always be subjective. Of course, there are little things I may do too. Saturate colors beyond the SL shot, tweak levels, etc. Very minor, though. -DONE-
[12:37] Josephine Delvalle: I know, that terrible SL ‘effects’
[12:37] HaileyMarie Redrose: Let’s put it behind us right Josephine
[12:37] Josephine Delvalle: yes, welcome the new effects. Sym, please
[12:38] . S y m . ™ (symmetryskyline): My goal is to present an authentic image to the viewer, as my eyes saw and mind envisioned (some might argue, there is a conflict between the mind’s image and what the eye technically sees). I’m a purist and believe all manipulation after taking the photo is cheating. Anyone can learn software, doesn’t make them a photographer. My goal is to be a true photographer. I strive to limit photo manipulation. Done
[12:39] Igi (igielka): C
[12:39] Josephine Delvalle: Igi, please
[12:40] Igi (igielka): I must say I love to see images from SL look like SL. That is really perfect, Yes I edit my images but because as a fantasy lover I like that they give this fantasy climate, but still I try to ensure they look like they were made in SL. Done
[12:41] Josephine Delvalle: Which tool you are using, Igi?
[12:42] Ⴆҽҽ (filipa.emor): C
[12:42] Igi (igielka): I use Gimp with Nik collections for some nice filters
[12:42] . S y m . ™ (symmetryskyline): C
[12:42] Josephine Delvalle: Bee, pls
[12:43] Ⴆҽҽ (filipa.emor): I always edit my pictures after taking them. For better quality, for effects, etc. If I want something specific I can’t do it inworld, I manipulate it after. I don’t see it as cheating to be honest. I see it as a way to achieve your objective with that picture, like the example we are seeing. Of course you can cheat with photography manipulating it, but the cheater is the photographer, not the photography itself in my opinion. Depends for what the manipulation is used. Done
[12:44] Igi (igielka): Q
[12:44] Josephine Delvalle: Sym, your turn
[12:44] Kika Yongho: c
[12:44] . S y m . ™ (symmetryskyline): I think we need to distinguish between photography and art. If you manipulate images (e.g., more than cropping, color balance, or saturation), it may be art, but you’re strayed too far from photography. It’s important for each of us to admit what we’re doing. Done.
[12:45] Cecilia Nansen: C
[12:45] Josephine Delvalle: and Igi again
[12:46] Igi (igielka): My question is where is the limit for an edit ? I mean I saw many images edited where people made own sky, hairs look so real..for me it crosses a line, too much editing which ruins the SL aspect
[12:47] CΞLΞSТIΛL DΞMON (celestialdemon): c
[12:47] Josephine Delvalle: anyone an answer to Igi?
[12:47] HaileyMarie Redrose: I do
[12:48] HaileyMarie Redrose: S y m actually makes a REALLY good point there. It’s important to make the distinction instead of generalizing. There are artistic works you simply can’t achieve with straight-up raw photography. In that case, you’re shooting for surrealism and expression, whereas in photography, it’s about capturing that specific moment and/or subject, free of manipulation. So that’s a really good distinction to make. I lean a lot more towards “art” when I shoot, but if I’m just trying to capture an in-the-moment shot, I try to limit my post editing to the very minor things I mentioned before.
[12:48] Igi (igielka): C
[12:49] Josephine Delvalle: Thank you Hailey and we go on with Kika
[12:49] Kika Yongho: I just wanted to comment that everyone has got a personal concept about what is “the real deal” or the true art, about which I like to confront although I don’t believe there is any true-er point of view, because as we said in the past – and almost everyone agreed upon – “art is something that can bring emotions to ourselves”. What is more subjective than that? So, this said, my own approach is mixed. I try and take a photo and – according to the goal I want to achieve – I can be happy with it “as it is” or I like to add a touch to the image. I use Nik Collection as well and I really love a specific effect which is called “Double exposure”. I usually label my “NO EDIT” photos on Flickr but I am not pro or against any of the two approaches as they should simply serve the purpose. Done
[12:50] . S y m . ™ (symmetryskyline): C
[12:50] Josephine Delvalle: And Cecilia, please
[12:51] Cecilia Nansen: I have to say…i try to respect all of us and how we express ourselves and what feels good for us. What sparkles joy in our heart with the precious time we spend in here. To call other peoples way of expressing themselves for ‘cheating’ is going too far.
In truth we are cheating already because we do not make photos as in real photography, if you have ever tried to catch the right light in RL, you all know what i talk about There are no rights or wrongs here, but what we do as a hobby…and very very few do, which is art …done
[12:52] Josephine Delvalle: Thank you and Hailey again
[12:53] Josephine Delvalle: (and with ‘cheating’ we wanted to tickle your blood pressure a bit)
[12:53] Josephine Delvalle: Ok, it is Celestials turn
[12:53] CΞLΞSТIΛL DΞMON (celestialdemon): I believe that here the truth is another one, there are infinite ways to express what you have inside you with your personal wealth of experience, whether it is only secondlife or adding various filters. Everyone uses what they know, if someone wants to “improve” the graphics of their photos, just have the courage and willingness to learn new things, whether it is photoshop or something else. Everyone is capable of making a photo with a simple click, even the most horrible or the most beautiful, it always depends on what is behind it and before that click. Every photo has its own beauty, whether it is edited or not, it all depends on what it is capable of carrying with it. Augmented graphics are only for the pleasure of the eye, the look of the internal emotion is beyond any filter that can be used, so I think everyone has the right to use what they know how to use and to learn what they want to learn.
[12:54] CΞLΞSТIΛL DΞMON (celestialdemon): And to be honest sometimes I still use regular paint. Done
[12:55] Josephine Delvalle: smiles, nods
[12:55] Josephine Delvalle: (ahhh, the first and oldest ways of editing has been with very tiny pencils. Using fine brushes and special paint, important image details were traced on both photos and the originals (negatives, glass plates)
[12:56] Josephine Delvalle: Igi please
[12:58] Kika Yongho: q
[12:59] Igi (igielka): I really hate sometimes when I see people make edits with big skills and feel artist then someone else makes a pure image but with soul and have so much in it but people ignore it. Done
[13:00] Josephine Delvalle: understand, Sym please
[13:00] HaileyMarie Redrose: C
[13:00] . S y m . ™ (symmetryskyline): I agree with Kika’s comment. In the end, my point is – just be honest with your audience. Everyone should do as they like – you only have yourself to please. But, Don’t try to “sell” a filtered photo as raw, or god forbid that AI crap. Done.
[13:01] Josephine Delvalle: good argument, Sym. Kika, please
[13:01] Kika Yongho: I have a question for Sym, not provocative but just to understand: what purpose you want to achieve as “pure photographer”? Is that still a way to express? How is that related to art for yourself? Done
[13:02] Josephine Delvalle: Ok, Sym, would you like to answer?
[13:02] . S y m . ™ (symmetryskyline): Kika, my view on this topic has become quite polarized since seeing so many AI photos lately. I realize it’s not the same as manipulation, but it’s moved me farther away from center. It’s as I said Anyone can learn software, doesn’t make you a photographer. Done
[13:04] Josephine Delvalle: Thank you Sym and Hailey will close discussion
[13:04] HaileyMarie Redrose: Thank you Josephine. I was going to say that about 8 years ago, I lost someone very important to me in SL, and to commemorate, I did a shot of me hugging her gravestone in the picture. At the time, there were no BOM tears, so I used post edit dodging to create a flow of tears running down my face. To me, it was very important to capture the emotion of that moment, and the pain I was feeling. In that case, the art being ultimately expressive, and deeply personal. Had it been RL, I would have simply cried and had someone take the picture. We do what we must do.
[13:04] Kika Yongho: I think learning how to use a tool doesn’t make you an artist if you don’t have something to express inside
[13:05] Josephine Delvalle: Nods, that’s a point, Hailey…and sorry for your lost and pain
[13:06] Igi (igielka): I love how we can put in SL real emotions we feel in moment
[13:06] . S y m . ™ (symmetryskyline): this was a great discussion.
[13:06] Josephine Delvalle: Just for my own curiosity: does anyone use tools to create photos like Rosset (the example photo)?
[13:08] HaileyMarie Redrose: I think for a shot like that, you’re looking at a combination of the right Windlight, and a weather system. The rest, you can probably take it right there on the spot
[13:08] Kika Yongho: With AI could be easier but your hands wouldn’t get dirty .. less fun 😛
[13:09] Josephine Delvalle: nods, yes, he is taking really photos and than just cut and past and combine them ‘surreal’ with the help of photoshop
[13:10] Cecilia Nansen: If i like – yes i do. it speak volumes to me, and that is what is important to me – i do not distinguish if Picasso paint with oil or water paint. it is art…not about how it is done…I have a limit on AI, but its because it doesn’t speak to me. I feel nothing
[13:10] . S y m . ™ (symmetryskyline): I agree, Cecilia, it’s dead eyes.
[13:10] Josephine Delvalle: That is a very good explanation, cecilia
[13:11] Kika Yongho: Yes Cecilia, to me too is too “brainy” even for myself. But maybe for someone who could only speak it could be a beautiful addition.. Think a Stephen Hawking
[13:11] Josephine Delvalle: Thank you all for a very interesting discussion and a great evening again.
[13:11] HaileyMarie Redrose: THis was my first visit, I’m very happy I came
[13:11] . S y m . ™ (symmetryskyline): Thank you, Josephine
[13:11] Kika Yongho: Don’t forget your challenge uh!
[13:12] Josephine Delvalle: We will see you again 23rd March for a new round
